New Bonus Episode Just Published: The Empty Grave Film

Between episodes 1 and 2, we’ve just published a bonus episode you can listen to on Spotify, Apple Podcasts, or online.

It’s a conversation with Cece Mlay and Agnes Lisa Wegner, the filmmakers of The Empty Grave. The film follows two families in Tanzania as they demand the return of their ancestors’ remains from Germany. It hits cinemas on May 23.

Below is a partial transcript of our conversation.

Matthews: People might say when they're talking about the subject that it's so long ago. I think one of the things that your film did was to sort of bring it into the present. Why do you think the story is relevant now? If people are saying, some of these people were killed a hundred years ago, or, these things are a long time ago - what made it contemporary for you? 

Wegner: I think, I mean, that's a great question and I think what it all comes down to is that people have to understand, especially on the European side of this story, is that none of that is over. If a crime is committed that is that vast and inhuman and has such an immeasurable impact on societies, that this is not something that can be over after a decade or two or, or six, you know. It will have traces that last for an extremely long time, over decades, over centuries, over generations, you know, such as we have discovered while we were making the film, that the pain that was caused to the communities that we talked to has been passed on from generation to generation. But then all of this being said, in this case, in our case, it is also far from being over. Because let me make it very concrete. The things that were taken from Tanzania in that case, both cultural objects, religious objects, as well as human remains that were taken to Germany are still here. So how can this be over when Germany is still holding on to human remains as well as objects that are so important for the communities that they were taken from? And it's far from being resolved. 

Mlay: We met two beautiful families who had already passed these stories on within themselves and they had elders in both families who had very vivid recollections of things that were said either to their parents and passed on to them, or the fact that some of these families, just had been in a state of having an open piece of ground where there was not their relative where they should be. Because you also have to understand that the nature of most communities here in Tanzania, burials are a very sacred thing. Depending on obviously your religious background, most of our communities bury their family members at home in the grounds of the homes. And so, for that, proximity it is sort of claiming that this person is part of this space, is part of this family, is part of this community.

And we both wanted this to be a personal issue because it is a personal issue for these families. And, you know, both of us being women who have had that struggle of having personal and the political always being at a head - this was the best approach. Bring the people whose pain is very real and very tangible in a space in which it might be able to move people through these institutional and government spaces through the eyes of somebody whose humanity you're very close to.

Matthews: That's really interesting. Another thing we'd like to hear more about is the demands of the communities. What does it mean to them to have these remains back both materially, but also kind of symbolically, spiritually?

Mlay: The two families that we spoke about because they do come from the south of Tanzania and the north of Tanzania and their customs are such that when a person passes away each year, you go and visit the grave of the person who has departed. And this has been a practice that is very common within those two communities. Now, for one of our families, It's a fact that they have a grave that is half empty because the skull of their ancestor is not buried where it should be. In the north, they are missing the person entirely. And so both of these communities don't have a place in which they can go and acknowledge the fact that this person who was a member of their family is here. This is ours. This is somebody who we love, this is somebody who's part of our family.

On the communal level, each funeral is attended usually by your neighbor's neighbor's neighbor's neighbor. It’s a custom, it's a practice, it's a tradition. They don't have a place in which to claim this history as well. Because in both of the cases of these two families, you're talking about two very notable resistance fighters. That's a part of history that's missing. For the communities for the nation. And so when we speak about it on a spiritual level, what it means for us is for Tanzanians. It is like you are missing a member of your family and cannot claim that they were part of who you are as a family. For the community, they have no place to go and mourn a person who was a member of their community who has formed this history that they're a part of.

And so, before anybody can speak about the more tangible, more material, I guess processes would need to happen in order to start the process of reconciliation. These communities need to have a sense that this person is here. And then from there, our traditions and the customs of those two communities allow for all of these other quote unquote material, which are important things to happen after they have been able to lay this person to rest. 

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